tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18380739.post3971863580831520486..comments2023-10-26T07:08:33.504-04:00Comments on Migra Matters: 147Duke Reedhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05898716854097535479noreply@blogger.comBlogger14125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18380739.post-69003955329831400812007-12-07T14:45:00.000-05:002007-12-07T14:45:00.000-05:00What I might be willing to accept is that if an il...What I might be willing to accept is that if an illegal alien turns themselves and their employer in, they get a grace period to get a new job if they need to. If that illegal alien also has not violated any laws other than those related to entering the U.S. and getting and maintaining a job, and if they've had a job and have been off of state or federal assistance for, say, 75% of the time they have been in the U.S., then they become eligible for permanent resident alien status and can remain in the U.S. as long as they wish. But no citizenship; the privilege of voting for those who make and enforce our laws cannot be given to someone who is here because they broke them.RonFhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13533867151466876449noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18380739.post-4390928470686143112007-12-05T15:23:00.000-05:002007-12-05T15:23:00.000-05:00I'm still perplexed by Duke1676"147" blog and foll...I'm still perplexed by Duke1676<BR/>"147" blog and following comment.<BR/><BR/>As for the 147, perhaps we are in agreement that guestworker programs have broken the green card system. Reportedly, 1.2 million in the green card backlog are guestworkers and family due to annual waivers. <BR/><BR/>Perhaps addressing just this paragraph from Duke1676:<BR/><BR/>"And it would appear that your unwillingness to limit you opposition to the guest worker programs you claim have had adverse effects in your industry, but rather to oppose all immigration whatsoever, says much about the true motives behind your campaigns."<BR/><BR/>"...true motives behind the campaigns." <BR/><BR/>Nope, not opposing all immigration, opposing immigration for economic gain. The true meaning of "free-trade" is the free movement of investment capital not the movement of human capital. <BR/><BR/>The commonality is not simply that they are immigrants, economic immigration retards capital investment abroad -- therefore causing the necessity to migrate. <BR/><BR/>The "job sharing" and layoffs that excessive immigration causes in the U.S. makes servicing a mortgage (on-time every month) nearly impossible over the 20 year period. <BR/><BR/>After a couple of late payments, refinancing in sub-prime is often times the only option to stave off foreclosure. <BR/><BR/>Furthermore, housing equity abroad cannot prosper when the working class migrates -- prolonging indefinitely the labor arbitrage duration.<BR/><BR/>The Employment Based green card system (with per country caps) was designed to encourage our trading partners to provide retirement programs for their workers.<BR/><BR/>As for the 12 million, I would support a witness protection program rather than a blanket amnesty -- those who will testify against an illegal employer should be granted protection by the prosecutor. The IRS would disallow the deduction of illegal-wages during the auditable period (3-7 yrs)<BR/><BR/>It's rather amusing how trickle- down is ridiculed, but the voodoo economics of "creative destruction" is swallowed hook-line and sinker.weaverhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06069852600143331724noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18380739.post-42592333263588226742007-12-05T13:50:00.000-05:002007-12-05T13:50:00.000-05:00Duke 1676 wrote:"Well no, not if you read the myri...Duke 1676 wrote:<BR/><BR/>"Well no, not if you read the myriad of studies, articles and books that explain how job creation and labor economics is not based on a finite, zero-sum, model. It's not as if there are only x number of jobs and each one filled by an immigrant becomes makes that number x-1. If that was the case each time a child graduated from high school or college they would have to "steal" a job from a current worker in order to find employment." <BR/><BR/>These studies you mention, held relevance prior to the information age, when U.S. policy was to overheat the housing market with new economic immigrants. The sub-prime mortgage was invented to sustain the excessive immigration. The consequence has been the unprecedented devaluation of the USD and devastation the world wide financial markets.<BR/><BR/>The Census tells us that 2.4 million persons die in the U.S. every year. Census High School enrollment data suggests that 3,397,583 children are emancipated annually. Subtracting deaths, the domestic labor force grew by 7 million, with only an increase of 4.5 million jobs. The additional 9 million working age immigrants are generally "required" to remain employed during the (5yr) legal permanent resident period. <BR/><BR/>Duke 1676 also wrote: <BR/><BR/>"The labor market, like the economy, is fluid, creating and eliminating jobs on a constant basis according to market flows. It also doesn't run on a simplistic "supply and demand" model that states that if the supply of labor increases, wages must go down" <BR/><BR/>Yes, today's economists, who are funded by lobbyists, must abandon supply/demand in order to justify the desired conclusion. Yet, the hard-data proves the centuries old supply / demand rule... <BR/><BR/>Economics: Scarcity<BR/>The limited availability of resources are the foundation of Economics, which is concerned with the problem of using those available resources as efficiently as possible to achieve the maximum fulfillment of society's unlimited demands for goods and services.<BR/><BR/>As for the high-tech H-1B visa, we simply look at BLS computer-related occupations.<BR/><BR/>Growth in Computer-related occupations 2000-2006 = 326,600<BR/>12.36% of yr. 2000 employment.<BR/><BR/>H-1B initial computer-related employment approvals 2000-2006 = 328,968<BR/>12.45% of yr. 2000 employment.<BR/><BR/>Comp. Science Bachelor .Science Degrees (1) 2000-2006 = 313,219<BR/>11.85% of yr. 2000 employment.<BR/><BR/>(1) U.S. permanent resident B.S C.S.<BR/><BR/>Proving the excessive supply lowers wages <BR/>Reference: <BR/>The Bottom of the Pay Scale<BR/>Wages for H-1B Computer Programmers<BR/>http://www.cis.org/articles/2005/back1305.html<BR/><BR/>Furthermore, the H-1B and L-1 are primarily used by Offshore outsourcing specialists.<BR/><BR/> Top 20 H-1B Employer list 2006:<BR/><BR/>2006 H-1B and L-1 visas in Top 20 list -- Total visas = 48,159<BR/><BR/>Business Process Outsourcing Specialists (12)<BR/>TATA CONSULTANCY SERVICES LIMITED = 8293<BR/>INFOSYS TECHNOLOGIES LIMITED = 5202<BR/>WIPRO LIMITED = 4841<BR/>SATYAM COMPUTER SERVICES LTD = 3830<BR/>PATNI COMPUTER SYSTEMS INC = 1831<BR/>HCL AMERICA INC = 1421<BR/>LARSEN & TOUBRO INFOTECH LIMITED = 1090<BR/>I-FLEX SOLUTIONS INC = 876<BR/>MPHASIS CORPORATION = 809<BR/>TECH MAHINDRA AMERICAS INC = 781<BR/>COGNIZANT TECH SOLUTIONS U S CORP = 5746<BR/>LANCESOFT INC = 645<BR/>Total H-1B and L-1 visas reported = 35,365<BR/>Percentage of "Top 20" Total = 73.43%<BR/><BR/>Accounting Services (2)<BR/>ERNST & YOUNG LLP = 913<BR/>DELOITTE & TOUCHE = 2067<BR/>Total H-1B and L-1 visas reported = 2980<BR/>Percentage of "Top 20" Total = 6.19%<BR/><BR/><BR/>Producers of Tangible Goods (6)<BR/>MICROSOFT = 3285<BR/>IBM CORPORATION = 2367<BR/>INTEL CORP = 1222<BR/>ORACLE USA INC = 1198<BR/>CISCO SYSTEMS INC = 893<BR/>MOTOROLA INC = 849<BR/>Total H-1B and L-1 visas reported = 9814<BR/>Percentage of "Top 20" Total = 20.38%<BR/><BR/>Source: GRASSLEY, DURBIN RELEASE NEW INFORMATION ON L VISASweaverhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06069852600143331724noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18380739.post-14329743621267287992007-12-05T11:17:00.000-05:002007-12-05T11:17:00.000-05:00That is precisely the point. If the US needs unski...<I>That is precisely the point. If the US needs unskilled labor (something most economists would agree with) then we NEED to provide a way to get that labor in here LEGALLY. You see this as focusing too much on the needs of immigrants, whereas I see it as focusing more on the labor needs of this country.</I><BR/><BR/>I imagine that the U.S. needs unskilled labor. Whether that need can be fulfilled by the existing citizenry is an open question. Demand and supply may not be the only factor in the labor pool, but it's a big one. Remove the pool of labor that can be easily exploitable because of their status of being here illegally and let's see what the effects truly are. How much would employers be forced to raise wages? In what fashion would employers be forced to get creative and re-engineer products and processes to rely less on unskilled labor?<BR/><BR/>I'll be glad to focus on the labor needs of the U.S. But the presumption is that the status quo represents the true labor <B>needs</B> of the U.S. I don't agree. I think that it represents the <B>desires</B> of those making inordinate profits off of exploitable labor. As long as one American citizen is unemployed, no job that that citizen can do should be performed by an alien (whether illegal or legally resident). The U.S. is stronger when as many people as possible are contributing productive labor rather than consuming public resources.<BR/><BR/>Certainly government processes should be as efficient as possible. Unfortunately, the government has no competitors, so there are no market forces to compel efficiencies. Committing the resources to improve this process should have a priority proportional to the expected benefit to the U.S. by the improvement. Right now, I think that's a lower priority compared to the priority needed to enforce existing law regarding preventing people from coming into the country illegally and punishing the people who hire them. The latter is especially important. Choke off the source of jobs and there won't be nearly as many illegal border crossers to catch. The cozy deal between government and industry that has let employers off the hook needs to be broken up.RonFhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13533867151466876449noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18380739.post-6522943077814346382007-12-04T23:14:00.000-05:002007-12-04T23:14:00.000-05:00Correction: No family is allowed to come ALONG.Correction: No family is allowed to come ALONG.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18380739.post-57254645151506806302007-12-04T23:11:00.000-05:002007-12-04T23:11:00.000-05:00If we did it like Canada does, I wouldn't object. ...If we did it like Canada does, I wouldn't object. First the employer has to prove a need (no citizens available) for a worker for a specified length of time. The government recruits in the foreign land, fills the position and the worker is transported to Canada. No family is allowed to come alone. The workers are not allowed to apply for citizenship. When the "contract" is finished they are transported back to their homeland. That approach should make everyone happy.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18380739.post-85296911315735492502007-12-04T18:12:00.000-05:002007-12-04T18:12:00.000-05:00Ron:That is precisely the point. If the US needs ...Ron:<BR/><BR/>That is precisely the point. If the US needs unskilled labor (something most economists would agree with) then we NEED to provide a way to get that labor in here LEGALLY. You see this as focusing too much on the needs of immigrants, whereas I see it as focusing more on the labor needs of this country.<BR/><BR/>I see it as a situation similar to the Prohibition last century. The laws were inefficient and went counter to human nature and the laws were eventually repealed since they were impossible to enforce. I wouldn't have supported breaking the laws back then, and I don't support it now, but I do support revising the laws to reflect economic necessity. <BR/><BR/>In this case, the bureaucratic and poorly crafted immigration laws go counter to our OWN economic necessity by blocking the plentiful supply of labor just south of us, considering the extraordinarily high demand we have for an unskilled labor workforce for farming, construction and a myriad of other businesses. The country's growth depends on businesses of all kind who employ us, give us security (sometimes) and basically are what drive the economy. The lack of unskilled workers is a REAL problem due to demographics in this country (aging population, etc.) The same is happening in some Asian countries like Singapore, where they have to go to the Philippines to recruit unskilled labor. Luckily, we don't have to go anywhere, since there is a ready workforce just south of us.<BR/><BR/>It's not about them, Ron, its about us.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18380739.post-47134707360625076312007-12-04T17:58:00.000-05:002007-12-04T17:58:00.000-05:00Mr. Parker, you may be right; it may be very diffi...Mr. Parker, you may be right; it may be very difficult to wend one's way through the immigration process and successfully legally enter America and later become either a resident alien or a citizen.<BR/><BR/>So what?<BR/><BR/>The immigration process exists to serve the United States, not the applicants for immigration. It may well have gross flaws that need to be fixed, but this does not create justification for people to break the law. There is no right to leave another country and enter the U.S.RonFhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13533867151466876449noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18380739.post-39674185299291276592007-12-04T16:39:00.000-05:002007-12-04T16:39:00.000-05:00Weaver said:Could it be that they under-cut the la...Weaver said:<BR/><BR/><EM>Could it be that they under-cut the labor rate of mortgage holding U.S. Citizens?</EM><BR/><BR/>Well no, not if you read the myriad of studies, articles and books that explain how job creation and labor economics is not based on a finite, zero-sum, model. It's not as if there are only x number of jobs and each one filled by an immigrant becomes makes that number x-1. If that was the case each time a child graduated from high school or college they would have to "steal" a job from a current worker in order to find employment. <BR/><BR/>The labor market, like the economy, is fluid, creating and eliminating jobs on a constant basis according to market flows. It also doesn't run on a simplistic "supply and demand" model that states that if the supply of labor increases, wages must go down. <BR/><BR/>But now to the bigger question.<BR/><BR/>Why is it that you tech industry H1b opponents constantly conflate the situation with the current increases in LEGAL guest worker programs like H1b and L1, with the broader issue of unauthorized migration of mostly un-skilled workers and immigration reform in general? <BR/><BR/>While many in the pro-migrant movement vehemently oppose guest worker programs of all stripes, and call for their total elimination, you H1b opponents chose instead to align yourselves with the far-right, eliminationist forces in this debate. <BR/><BR/>I have asked of some of the national leaders of the tech /immigration lobby this same question...and never seem to get an answer. How does opposing the normalization of the immigration status of millions of unauthorized low-skilled workers have anything whatsoever to do with the LEGAL importation of millions of high-skilled guestworkers? The only common denominator would be that they are foreign born...after that all the other economic and social comparisons are apples and oranges.<BR/><BR/>And it would appear that your unwillingness to limit you opposition to the guest worker programs you claim have had adverse effects in your industry, but rather to oppose all immigration whatsoever, says much about the true motives behind your campaigns.Duke Reedhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10372995156231067645noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18380739.post-16863447142050120502007-12-04T11:00:00.000-05:002007-12-04T11:00:00.000-05:00147 …so tell me again how there is a legal path fo...<I>147 …so tell me again how there is a legal path for all who are willing to work and wait patiently.</I><BR/><BR/>Who said there is?<BR/><BR/>Who said there should be?RonFhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13533867151466876449noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18380739.post-58196954737342470792007-12-03T21:55:00.000-05:002007-12-03T21:55:00.000-05:00This Century, the U.S. civilian noninstitutional p...This Century, the U.S. civilian noninstitutional population has grown almost 16 million people. <BR/><BR/>New Jobs for Men? 241,134<BR/><BR/>New Jobs for Women? 4,254,265<BR/><BR/>Where are the jobs for these immigrants legal or otherwise? Could it be that they under-cut the labor rate of mortgage holding U.S. Citizens?<BR/><BR/><BR/>Men 16 and over:<BR/>Employment-population ratio June, 2000 = 72%<BR/>Employment-population ratio June, 2007 = 69.8%<BR/>Increase in civilian noninstitutional population (June, 2000 – June, 2007) = 5,858,000<BR/>Increase Employment (Jobs, June, 2000 – June, 2007) = 241,134<BR/>Jobs required to attain June, 2000 Employment-population ratio of 72% = 5,616,866<BR/><BR/>Additional jobless persons<BR/>June, 2007 Unemployment Level – Men = 3,829,000 (4.7%)<BR/><BR/>Women 16 and over:<BR/>Employment-population ratio June, 2000 = 57.5%<BR/>Employment-population ratio June, 2007 = 56.7%<BR/>Increase in civilian noninstitutional population (June, 2000 – June, 2007) = 9,063,000<BR/>Increase Employment (Jobs: June, 2000 – June, 2007) = 4,254,265<BR/>Jobs required to attain June, 2000 Employment-population ratio of 57.5% = 4,808,735<BR/><BR/>Additional jobless persons:<BR/>June, 2007 Unemployment Level – Women = 3,104,000 (4.4%)weaverhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06069852600143331724noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18380739.post-24105099964242438012007-11-26T11:25:00.000-05:002007-11-26T11:25:00.000-05:00You know, this here is the crux of the entire so-c...You know, this here is the crux of the entire so-called immigration problem. Politicians are using this as a wedge issue because honestly, only one side of the story is being told, from the media (thanks Lou) from the hatemongers and the legions of organized anti-immigrant forces in this country. Every time I read comments on immigration-related articles, the comments are 10 to 1 in favor of the hate-mongering anti-immigrants. There is so much misinformation that even the smartest, best informed people I know are woefully clueless about the situation. <BR/><BR/>I'm glad to read the articles in Migra Matters and just wish that a) it had a wider readership and b) there were more blogs like it. <BR/><BR/>I think we need to focus on the economic realities... as that is the only thing that can overcome the emotion and vitriol being heaped on by the other side. Demand (of labor) in the US greatly exceeds the Supply. Supply in Mexico greatly exceeds the demand in Mexico. 147 visas are granted every year to fill the labor needs of this country. That just doesn't make any sense.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15455131308767052360noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18380739.post-17809365757013937132007-11-26T10:54:00.000-05:002007-11-26T10:54:00.000-05:00You know, there is so much misunderstanding about ...You know, there is so much misunderstanding about how the immigration system works or (doesn’t work). Out of a thousands comments posted on the topic of immigration perhaps one actually reflects a correct understanding of the situation. You know how many hundreds of times I have read the comment “why cant they just do it the right way” as if applying for a legal status was as easy as walking to the post office to get a passport photo taken. If they don’t understand the near impossibility of getting and maintaining a legal status, they don’t understand the issue. So many of the arguments supporting draconian immigration policies are founded truly bogus assumptions.<BR/><BR/>In what is probably a futile effort, I have begun to compile a library of mini-articles about immigration. They are small and concise enough to be posted on an online discussion. They are based on citable sources and cover topics that are routinely misrepresented, such as language proficiency, etc. I know there is no way I can convince the rabidly anti-immigrant, but perhaps there will be others who are actually seeking real information. Perhaps you could condense the very striking statistics you discovered into a mini-article and make it easy for people to quote and share your research during online blog conversations. richard.f.parker@gmail.comAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-18380739.post-87620182137385616972007-11-24T13:25:00.000-05:002007-11-24T13:25:00.000-05:00Thank you for this careful analysis of the facts. ...Thank you for this careful analysis of the facts. You have nailed the essential point: that the unskilled workers on whose labor the country depends have no legal way of entering the country.<BR/><BR/>99% of agricultural workers are undocumented.<BR/><BR/>It is shameful that we the American people are permitting the people who feed us to live in a limbo of fear, and to be used as scapegoats for the soak-the-poor policies of the Republican adminsitration (and its Democratic enablers).<BR/><BR/>Undocumented immigrants must be given a path to normalize their status, and the Immigration Service must be funded and administered in such a way to eliminate the bureaucratic backlogs.<BR/><BR/>Getting out the facts, as you are doing, is the first step. Many Americans are already steeped in the racist hate of scapegosting, but many are not.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com